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Forum:Did Udina Frame Pallin?
}There are spoilers here for Mass Effect: Inquisition. If you haven't read it already, read it! In the comic, Pallin says "Udina can't be trusted," and he seems to think that Udina is framing him somehow. Also, after Pallin's death, when Udina is looking at the datapad, he has what looks like a smirk on his face. So, here's the question: Did Udina frame him? Personally, I wouldn't really put it past him. What do you think? --Effectofthemassvariety 15:09, October 27, 2010 (UTC) I wouldn't put it past him, there was always something about that slimeball that rubbed me the wrong way. (I mean other than the fact that he is a total A$$hole) Do I think Cerberus was involved, yes I do. It is stated after completing Thane's Personal Mission, that they were considering Bailey as a possible recruitment. I see this as The Illusive Man's way of putting all of his pieces into place onto the proverbial chess board that is the galaxy. He is getting Bailey where he wants him and he is doing it through Udina. --The Shadow User 18:23, October 27, 2010 (UTC)The Shadow User :What you said just gave me a crazy thought. What if Udina is a supporter/operative/agent of Cerberus! Sure, there may be some inconsistencies with that line of thinking, but it's a possibility! If he were an undercover agent, then he would have to appear to cooperate with the council, thus getting in their good graces, and eventually gaining more power for humanity. However, Udina doesn't seem to care about human dominance as much as he cares about Udina-dominance. Whether he is, or not, it's a crazy idea! --Effectofthemassvariety 18:32, October 27, 2010 (UTC) I've been thinking there was something up with Udina since towards the ending of the first Mass Effect, and since playing Mass Effect 2 I believe you and I are right. It would make sense that the Illusive Man would have connections to people on the Citadel and since he wants the "dominance of humanity" it would make sense that his best connection would be with the Human Ambassador/Councilor --The Shadow User 18:41, October 27, 2010 (UTC)The Shadow User :The problem here is that you are only asking half a question. If the question is "Did Udina frame Pallin", the answer is clearly no. More on that in a sec. If the question is, however, "Did Udina force Pallin into a situation in which Pallin would incriminate himself", then the answer is maybe. After all, Udina in no way framed Pallin for murdering two C-Sec officers (you'll note Pallin never denies Bailey's accusations), nor did he frame Pallin for the assault on/attempted murder of Bailey himself. That was all Pallin. So while it may have been a frame-up that led Pallin to do what he did, ultimately he is guilty of some pretty serious crimes that he alone bears responsibility for. Udina cannot be faulted for Pallin's decision to start killing people. As for him saying "Udina can't be trusted"... well, I also tend not to trust murderers who've just killed men they were supposed to be protecting and looking out for. SpartHawg948 20:09, October 27, 2010 (UTC) He kind of denies it: "I didn't do anything wrong!" But sure, I get what you're saying; however, Bailey believed that something was off. I mean, remember Pallin from the first game? He hated Spectres because they thought they were above the law. Then again, I guess sociopaths are good at pretending. :P Anyways, I think that you're right about Udina forcing him into a position. The fact is, I don't think that Udina's hands are clean in this matter. --Effectofthemassvariety 22:09, October 27, 2010 (UTC) :That was a denial of the datapad, not killing the C-Sec guys, nor does it excuse his subsequent attempted murder of Bailey. He says he didn't do anything wrong explicitly referring to the datapad, as viewing the quote in full shows: "You and Udina won't get away with this. I didn't do anything wrong!" It's also important to remember that when he says that, he's already tried to kill Bailey and has been shot and disarmed. His response when Bailey accuses him of murdering the C-Sec officers is to demand the datapad from Bailey. And again, even if he didn't kill the C-Sec officers (which, given his lack of a denial and his subsequent behavior, is extremely unlikely), his decision to try to kill Bailey is his own, and can in no way be pinned on Udina. Regardless of whether or not Udina used false evidence to get Bailey to go after Pallin, the Executor is clearly guilty based solely on the actions we see him committing. And personally, given his total lack of hesitation in trying to kill Bailey in order to get the datapad, I really can't see him being framed. He didn't react like someone being framed. He reacted like a guilty man trying to escape justice. SpartHawg948 03:53, October 28, 2010 (UTC) Okay. I'm mostly playing devil's advocate at this point, so don't begrudge me. :P It could be argued, through wild imaginings and useless speculation, that those men were sent to detain Pallin, and when he resisted, they pulled their weapons, and he defended himself. Then when Bailey comes, then Pallin's long hidden case of schizophrenia pops up, which would explain his pattern of declare-innocence, followed by murderous-rampager. . . It could happen! . . . Alright, I will not argue that Pallin is guilty of murder/attempted murder, though I we can't be totally sure that his actions were completely unfounded. Just like the fact that we can't be totally sure that Joy Behar is a naturally born woman: We don't have all the facts. I guess the only thing that I'll address is the liklihood that Udina had something to do with the manufactured evidence. His smirk, a look of contemt, is pretty good proof that his hands aren't clean. I know it seems like a little thing, but it's a comic. Someone had to draw these things, which means that his smirk is no accident. (Finally! A time when watching Lie to Me has paid off! Albeit in a very trivial way.) Also, while we're on the subject, Spart, what do you think of the idea of Udina secretly being a supporter/operative/agent of Cerberus? The idea is pretty tantalizing, even though it's complete speculation, and I'll probably be dissappointed later. Just like when I thought that Number 7/Daniel, the unseen Cylon, was Starbuck's father on BSG. That was a real dissappointment. --Effectofthemassvariety 05:58, October 28, 2010 (UTC) :The smirk to me seemed more of a smirk resulting from what he was saying, not the datapad. After all, you'll note that he is not smirking while looking at the datapad, and when he is smirking, he's holding the box with Bailey's new rank insignia in it. It seems more to me that he's taking some sense of malicious enjoyment in thinking that, as he says, "Of course he was '''shocked'. He never expected to be caught. But the facts don't lie."'' He could just be smirking because he doesn't like Pallin. Remember, Udina was a big backer of Harkin for quite some time, while Pallin was no fan of Harkin. It's entirely possible that Udina simply didn't like Pallin, and his smirk was evidence of schadenfreude. As for Udina and Cerberus: I highly doubt he's an operative or an agent of Cerberus, as he's still there in Mass Effect: Inquisition, which happens after the big bust of Cerberus operatives and agents working for the Alliance and on the Citadel which occurred during Mass Effect: Retribution. As for being a supporter, I can't say I've seen any evidence of it, so I won't speculate. SpartHawg948 06:05, October 28, 2010 (UTC) You know, I just looked at it again, and I think you're right. I think I was just looking for some reason to have Udina be the bad guy because (1) I don't like him. (2) I actually felt that Pallin was being framed, and needed someone to pin it on. Well, I hope they actually pick this thread up and run with it, cause I hate to be left high and dry. Anyways, I guess it's good you don't like to speculate, especially with no evidence. When I grow desperate for info, my imagination tends to create wild speculation, sometimes with no regard for canon, which never pays off in the end. --Effectofthemassvariety 06:25, October 28, 2010 (UTC) :I guess I really am the only guy who actually likes Udina! Every time something about him comes up, I'm the only one defending him or pointing out alternatives to his being the worst person in the history of people! :P Seriously though, I like Udina. Don't ask why, as I really have no clue. Maybe I'm just a contrarian that way. I get where you're coming from, and I'll admit, it's possible, and I'll go one further and say that it is plausible. However, I don't think it's right. I personally think that the smirk and all that is just Udina being a jerk and getting some satisfaction at bad things happening to a guy he probably doesn't like. He strikes me as the kind of guy who would take pleasure in just such a thing. However, I do have some serious objections, as pointed out above, to the theory that he works for Cerberus. After all (just thought of this), if he did work for Cerberus, and if you're playing a game where the Council died (either an imported one where you got them killed, or the default ME2 settings), you should be able to just walk up to him, ask for the Council to help protect human worlds from the Collectors, and save yourself all sorts of trouble and effort. But this doesn't happen. SpartHawg948 06:34, October 28, 2010 (UTC) I think I figured out why you like him: You understand his pain! After all, you just try and do what's right, and you're still accused of being a big beauracratic jerk on a daily basis. Wow! I finally get it! :P Anyways, I guess you're right. The fact that having an all human council under Udina doesn't help you in ME2 is a pretty clear indicator that he doesn't work for Cerberus. He is very willing to play politics to gain more power for himself, which is really quite rare for a politician. Oh wait. . . :P So maybe he's just a power hungry jerk. Maybe he's just a red herring. I mean, he's almost too obvious of a jerk to be the true villain. Maybe he's like the Professor Snape of the Mass Effect Universe. Does that make sense? (Please tell me that you know what I'm talking about.) Maybe he truly is just misunderstood. :) --Effectofthemassvariety 06:55, October 28, 2010 (UTC) After reading through Inquisition and through the rest of this page, I gotta say Spart makes some pretty good points. There's alot of evidence to support that Udina isnt evil...he's just an a$$hole. He probably doesnt work for Cerberus, but after the way he sells u out in ME, I havent really trusted him since. I still say hes got something up his sleeve, and if im wrong (which I'll admit is possible) i still think hes and A$$hole. (Although I respect your opinion Spart)--The Shadow User 13:24, October 28, 2010 (UTC)The Shadow User